Waching daily Oct 24 2018

welcome to the podcast series of the college of education and integrative

studies. I'm Jeff Passe. Dean of the college and we have here three

distinguished educators who are graduates of our doctoral program. Why

don't you each introduce yourselves then tell us what it is you do. Well hello

and thank you so much for having us my name is Dana Mitchell and I'm the

director of curriculum and instruction and the Aziza Unified School District

and my name is Robert Sortino and I'm an educational consultant for the Paiute

Shoshone tribe in Lone Pine California. Adrania Gonzalez I'm the principal of

the Anza Middle School in the Ontario Montclair School District. So we have

three educational leaders with us and the question would be why would you want

to get a doctorate? How would that be something that would help you in your

job? One of the reasons why I wanted to get my doctorate especially at Cal Poly

Pomona was the emphasis on practitioner research and as well as the emphasis in

social justice and the program. I started the program as a middle school principal

and then as I progressed about a year and I applied for a director of

curriculum and instruction so part of getting that doctorate work was to

further my career. Help me to learn some of the tools and strategies to be

able to scale up from a district from a school level administrator to a district

level administrator. So when you say practitioner research

what does that mean? So practitioner level research would be learning how to

collect data do research at the school level that really directly how do I say

this um it adds value to the work that we're doing at the school sites so when

we're looking at school improvement processes for example one of the things

that we're working on is elevating the language of our second language learners

and so having a research practitioner background really helps us to look at

best practices what are other districts and researchers doing to be able to

improve our second language learners and their ability to be able to access the

our education so one of the things that attracted you

guessing is that Cal Poly Pomona's program in educational leadership is not

theoretical it's really down-to-earth that you could use the very next day

that's part of your administrative choice absolutely ok very similar to

Dana in a sense that I was looking for an opportunity that allowed me to gain

proficiency in research and I liked the fact that I could be a practitioner at

the time I stepped in I was a director of curriculum instruction at a charter

school and I liked the fact that the work that I was doing in the classroom

was relevant to what I was doing at the worksite and so I used a lot of the

skills that I was gaining in the doctoral program to actually push and

and see progress in the educational environment that I was in I was actually

going through a WASC accreditation process and rest times is what Western

Association for schools and colleges and it was the organization that reviews

schools and other institutional institutions to make sure that they're

doing what they say they're doing absolutely and having the rigorous

experience of the doctoral program lended me to feel comfortable in that

environment to lead my teams in how to look at data and how to do research and

I benefited and more more so which was more important is that the students

benefit because of what I was learning and you were successful in getting your

accreditation I got we received the highest possible

accreditation was which was six years with the one mid-year a three-year

midterm cycle review that's very impressive you know I think it's a

really interesting question I've had that question why your doctorate posed

to me in different tones sometimes people just can't imagine on

purpose going back to school to study and so for

me it it started with kind of a personal goal of being just that lifelong learner

I'm sure that's probably a shared thought by all of the doctoral students

it's just the learning never ends and you come to a point sometimes when you

just want more and so that's kind of why I initially wanted to pursue a doctoral

degree now why Cal Poly Pomona Cal Poly Pomona

did something that other doctoral programs a lot of online programs which

people who just want three letters behind their name kind of pursue that

sometimes because it it's efficient in some ways I'm sure but I was

specifically looking for a program that has a cohort that I would go to class

and be with and build relationships and communicate with because I had that

experience in a master's program that was also also had a social justice focus

and I knew that I grew a lot in that in that setting in and that's what I looked

for and I really found here you mean everybody takes the same classes

together and they go through course after course year after year so you

really build those bonds what is it about the cohort that really appeals to

you what's so special about it well for me I would just say finding

that a level of comfort to really build a level of respect to have discourse

because the topics that we cover you know politically or personally or

philosophically people really have divergent idea is about and so to be

able to find a level of comfort in a group of diverse individuals to be able

to have discourse about really meaningful and important topics and

perhaps sometimes change your mind or shift your thinking and it's I guess for

the lifelong learner it's just it's exciting and it's fun and it honestly is

just part of the goal of moving on and learning so part I would guess

based on my own work in classroom discussion is that in a cohort you get

to know each other you're not just classmates but your

friends and you respected colleagues so you're more likely to listen

respectfully to one another really feel safe and disagreeing with one another

yes I would say so it's also a model where it's set up so we support and

encourage one another it's a very rigorous program and so and I was

fortunate enough to have Robert in my cohort and so it's there's different

professions that that come into this program teachers

site administrators district level administrators higher IDI admins as well

and so just the diversity of the different professions and the different

thoughts that come into that and it really does lend itself to getting the

perspectives from different people but it's really the support when you're

feeling you know gosh I I need to finish this assignment or this paper or you

know can I get a thought partner you know in my work really someone who can

give me that honest feedback that I can actually you know I can use in my work

mm-hm yeah I thought it was critical for me to be in a situation where I could

have an ongoing dialogue with people that were articulate very intelligent it

allowed me to reflect and kind of be challenged in some of my my own thinking

and to grow as an individual and I will say our discussions as a cohort elevated

my ability to be more effective in in a school district so it sounds to me like

the doctoral work is different than work at the Masters level or certainly on the

undergraduate level you're laughing what is it that sets it apart people who have

never attended a doctoral program I think it's just like any other course

they take what's different so I'll answer that

the Stardust I actually have two masters degrees one in sociology and one in

special education and getting a doctorate was by far much more rigorous

and just the the I remember the first assignment that we received and you know

having two masters degrees I thought I was somewhat prepared and the first

assignment was so challenging because of the level of research that was expected

and the quality of work that was demanded I remember even like crying

about it and just going I don't know if I can do this I don't know if I am

intelligent enough to handle this but being a part of a cohort and finding out

that my colleagues who I looked up to and we're looking around going all these

people are very intelligent we're struggling as well but we kind of fed

off to each other and work together that that encouraged me but is that the level

of research that was required and what do you mean by level of research like

people think of research as you know a scientist in the laboratory what kind of

research are you referring to so like I'll speak of my dissertation I have I

believe it is 38 pages of resources that I used to complete my dissertation in my

masters level I would say I might have used one page of resources as long as I

would say also just the the practical part of that so when I began the

doctoral program we began to think about the different topics that we're

interested in and we might want to study but you really think about something

that's practical and the work that you're doing and so and my dissertation

was the influence of lesson study on teacher practice we've done a lot of

work with professional learning can he's in our district we'd begun to do

some partnerships with another district doing a little bit of lesson study I

began to be very interested in professional learning from the

standpoint of the developing teacher learning at the central office and so as

I dug into this and I did the research and wrote my dissertation we did a pilot

practice case study before we even got into our own dissertation work that gave

me the tools to be able to take that back to my district and do that work

with some of our schools to practice and just the idea of lesson study together

within the professional learning community as a protocol has been very

beneficial and as a result in our district we've done a lot of work around

that lesson study work and we have been taking it to different schools and

building the capacity of teacher leaders our teachers on special assignment and

our principals as well to do the work so your experience suggests that it's a

good investment for school districts to encourage their personnel to get

doctoral degrees in the educational leadership at Cal Poly Pomona I would

say so because it yields all kinds of benefits for the students and the

teachers in the district well certainly yeah back to your original question

about how is it different at the doctoral level so I earned my master's

degree at UCLA and in educational leadership and which was a rigorous

program I would say more so than some of my peers that I knew that did other

programs but the the depth and the breadth of research that we are required

to not only do ourselves but to read what was presented to us by our

professors and what was required of us in terms of the products that we

produced was far and beyond you alluded to this far and beyond what I was

required to do in the completion of my master's program and just being able to

acquire a level of understanding that was much broader by going in depth in a

topic for example through our Asians and I know I heard this from all

of my classmates as well it just changes your level of thinking and of course and

my role as a school principal definitely allows me to look at solutions in a

multi-faceted way and I don't think that would have been the case prior to

completing the doctoral program so in some sense you becoming an expert at a

topic that you choose and you're also becoming a more incisive thinker now

somebody listen to this might be scared oh my gosh this guy was crying and this

one do you think she could make it what helped you besides the knowing that your

classmates are in the same boat what helped you not give up the

intentionality of the program to start with some ideas on this topic and then

as we went through the program the professors helped us to narrow narrow

narrow I think one of the the strongest reasons for this program in particular

and the fact that students are supported is because of the professors they're

highly knowledgeable just incredibly supportive in every aspect you can I

mean we emailed them and call them and met with them they're available they're

accessible and they're knowledgeable and so I cannae speaking for you know my

cohort I could I could probably say with certainty that that we finished and we

finished strong because of the support that we received from the faculty you've

been talking about a dissertation people may not know what is a dissertation and

how do you choose one tell us about your perhaps just detailing your own research

my dissertation was about the promise Scholars Program which exists in

partnership with the Ontario Montclair School District and several colleges and

universities and community partners and my I was intentional about the topic in

terms of my role in the district because I really wanted something that would

allow me to learn more about the community that I serve to connect

with resources and individuals that worked you know in partnership with

something that was really important to me which was college acess for my

students the demographics of my community are over 90% Latino all of my

students get free and reduced lunch at our school and I know that's similar to

many other schools it's the same demographics I worked with for twelve

years in Los Angeles and so this idea of equitable college access was just very

important to me but the part of the process of research and the steps that I

had to go through and the individuals I had to meet and the things that I read

and what I learned I just feel like the preparation for me to continue and do

what I need to do as a leader at a school site to ensure that my students

are reaching the opportunities available to them I just I just know that the

process that that I had to go through through my dissertation was key in

helping me build a foundation to really launch what the potential is for for my

students so in a master's program you have children The Promise Scholars

program and said okay I'm gonna report on its origins and what it's designed to

do but you've taken it a step further because you've got to research something

yes so what was your question I had three research questions and they

focused around what were the perceived benefits from the perspectives of the

different stakeholders in promise scholars and so it involved focus groups

with college students which didn't go as I planned which is part of the process

right and very in-depth interviews with leaders who were part of getting the

program started and so they came from various walks of life school leaders

community leaders nonprofit leaders college partner leaders and so the

results were really quite eye-opening in terms of the research another thing I

did was look in depth at the different types of college access

partnerships that exist in different areas of the nation and so what I was

able to do in the end with the synthesis was really pick out some important some

important details of what can actually be actionable by school leaders or even

district leaders counselors teachers and give some recommendations and I of

course for me that I feel like that really strengthens my resolve to ensure

equitable college access for students I said you didn't know you would have

those results when you started I I didn't know what was going to happen

when I started yes it was fun it was rigorous it was difficult it was very

challenging but it was fun well early on in the doctoral program they talked

about finding flow where you if you can find a topic that would allow you just

to kind of flow into it that was something that would sustain you to the

end and so the very first class we had was on leadership and we read a book I

was by Metzger I can't remember the actual name of the title is balancing

the educational life or something like that and it towards the end of the book

there was a paragraph and it talked about spiritual intelligence and I was

like I've never heard that term before but I'm a deeply spiritual person and I

was like I need to find out what that is and so I stopped reading that book that

night and I literally did research on that topic

all through the night in fact I didn't even go to sleep I just took a shower

and went to work I was so fascinated by that and as I began to dig deeper and

deeper I began to formulate this idea I would like to find out if other

administrators have had similar experiences as myself where I approach

difficult problems by tapping into my spirituality

and I wanted to find out was I crazy was I the only one or were there others out

there like me and I came to find out that there was a lot of research and a

lot of a lot of information coming at different angles to tackle that topic

and so it was just absolutely thrilling I literally found myself almost

depressed okay my dissertation was done because I found such joy and reading

about that topic and I still read about it just because it is so fascinating to

me and so for for my topic on lesson study we had already been doing a little

bit of work in that with another district with some science teachers and

so I wanted a listen study is yes getting teachers to talk about how they

structure lessons yes so lesson study the process is a it's a protocol that

teachers would use in a professional learning community and so a group of

teachers would get together and plan a lesson collaboratively one teacher from

that group would teach the lesson while the rest of the group would go in and

collect student data based on what the team decides then they come back based

on the student data they have gathered they look at the results of that to

determine to what extent did we meet our learning objectives and then they refine

the lesson and teach it one more time another person teaches at to another

group of students and then they again look at that student data so what I

wanted to look at is to what extent did that really influence the professional

learning of the teachers and were they able to not only make those adjustments

in that lesson but really transfer that to their other lessons as well and what

what I did find out was yes in fact that is the case but there are some factors

that some variables that I do have to take place while they're participating

in lesson study and one of the most important factors that we found out was

something something called the knowledgeable other and that's really

that content area expert who helps to guide them and takes them through an

inquiry process doesn't help plan the lesson but yet ask them very thoughtful

intentional questions to help push their thinking to refine and help make the

lessons stronger Wow so that's those are all powerful

examples of your work that has influenced your districts but also and

your schools but also yourselves you become different as a result of that and

I think what's really interesting is that we're talking about your

dissertation how long ago are we talking about what

you finished mm it's been 2017 yeah yeah two years I just I just finished this

summer or just my diploma it just came in the mail yesterday one of the funny

things about academics is they discover that even though they've worked so hard

on their dissertations and learned so much nobody ever asks them about it did

you have interesting reactions from your family and friends as you were going

through the doctoral program I would say for me just in terms of family and

friends very proud and a little unbelieving why would you subject

yourself to that but I would say just a lot of pride I was one of the older

cousins of both of my both sides of my family and the first to reach a doctoral

level I was the first to get master's degree the first to graduate I think

among my cousins from college and so I feel like I'm setting a bar you know for

my younger cousins and for my students as well probably one of the reasons that

I also wanted to what I want my students to see someone who looks like them or

looks like their aunt or looks like their mom who's also a doctor I'm also a

first generation college graduate first of my family to receive or earn a

master's degree and a doctorate as well so there's definitely at that sense of

pride from family and from friends but it for me it's also it was always a

personal goal and it's just something that I can you know we work in a

learning organization that's what we do and so I am a lifelong learner and so I

even though I'm not in a taking coursework

I still take online classes I you know participate in MOOCs

so constantly trying to yes the massive online open courses that's you know

different universities we have a partnership in our district with

Stanford University and so they have we've done some some work with them and

so they have reached out and they have opened up some some classes for some of

our teachers so I get to be part of that as well so any opportunity to continue

our education I'm going to continue to do that mm-hmm I'm also the first and

only person in my history of my family to have a doctorate my family was very

interested in what I was doing my my children are all adults and so they

would ask me about it we had dialogue about it my wife of course was the

primary reason I actually entered the program it was a personal goal for me I

was a student who was in special ed and I didn't learn how to read it until as a

seventh grade and so for me to be able to attain a doctor in education was

something very important especially with the population of students that I tend

to work with I I can look at them and say I understand your struggles but let

me tell you where you can go and so that was one of the motivations so it's

intense satisfaction for my sense from all three of you so in a little time

that we have left if somebody was considering entering a doctoral program

what advice would you give besides attending Cal Poly Pomona I would say

for myself one make sure that you have a strong support system make sure if

you're married or you're in a relationship that that significant other

understands that there's going to be tremendous sacrifice and be

communicating along the process and just being open because you know like because

it's an EDD program and you're a practitioner you're doing research and

you're actually doing a job so I mean I would

as a director I would put 75 to 80 hours a week in at my job and then I would

have to put in an enormous amount of work 4050 hours for the doctoral program

and so your significant other suffers during that period and so it's important

to make sure that your dialoguing during that time and just be open with your

cohort and your professors during that time when you're find yourself wanting

to quit or you're struggling or you're overwhelmed or you want to give in to

your fears and just just surround yourself with people that believe in you

and just be open and honest during that process and I would say to choose a

topic that you're passionate about because when you find that topic that

you that you are connected to it's part of your work it's part of who you are

it's what you believe in it it makes it joyful and it makes it worthwhile and in

the end when you finish and you have this work that you've completed that is

something that is personally and professionally satisfying and beneficial

it's worth it I would say I'm sure what I will say is going to echo what you've

both stated but first and foremost make sure your motivation is is very

authentic so it's not because you want a degree to get a better job or to get

more pay or just for any reason like that it's because you're motivated to

learn more it's because you're motivated to achieve to be a role model because

you're motivated to learn about a specific topic because other otherwise

it you won't make it that support system of course is incredibly important and

you won't be able to make it as well if you don't ensure that all of those

pieces of your life and and you've lined up everyone who will be available to

support you because it does take a toll the family one thing that I always had

to tell myself because I have two young children and they grew up you know

they're now eight and ten so they grew up the last three years

while I was completing my doctorate and I had to tell myself when they asked me

why I had to go to school I would tell them and then I'd remind myself don't

you want to go to my graduation because it was important to me to picture them

being at my graduation and to know that that would be an impactful moment for

them for the rest of their lives and that was part of what was making the

journey worth it so I want to thank you the three of you are fabulous

ambassadors for our program you've achieved so much and lots more to come

and thank you for joining us today thank you