Hello and welcome to Central Coast Newspapers' Video News. My name is Jackie
Pearson and today I'm joined by Father Rod Bower. Father Rod is actually the
Archdeacon for Justice in the Diocese of Newcastle, welcome Father Rod. Thank you
for having me. I'm sure you are well known by all of our readers and viewers
thank you very much for your time. You've just written your second book I believe.
I have in doing and it's called outspoken strangely enough. How did you
ever come across that? The publisher was actually putting pressure on me for a
working title and and I couldn't think of anything, so he said I'll just call it
'Outspoken', because all justice is social and that then it became the working
title, and then they liked at the end of the day and that was just, all justice
social. I've heard a couple of things and read a couple of the interviews that
you've done since the release of the book and and you very much talk in the
book, or explore in the book that that continuum, that balance between what you
call justice and order. Do you want to give us a definition of what you mean by
that. Well often the order we need, order is really important we don't want anarchy. So
order's really important, but order without justice is tyranny and often we
see that in social dynamics and in almost in everything, from personal
relationships up to right up to the national scene. If we look at the
national scene in terms of our treatment of refugees and asylum seekers.
What we see there is the triumph of order over justice. So in other words, there is a
issue in terms of refugees what we do is go into order mode and have Operations
Sovereign Borders, that's all about order, keeping our borders you know safe
and all that kind of thing, but at the cost of justice. So
we're locking innocent people up. And that dynamic exists in in local
communities as well in personal relationships and so the book's an
attempt to I guess explore how that those two things; order and
justice dance together to create a safe and just society. Now you came to
national and international prominence with your your message on on the sign at
the front of your church about LGTBIQ plus and same-sex marriage but the
first time I heard you speak was on an anniversary of 9/11 and you were
speaking about the first time you got some pushback on your sign which was
following 9/11 when you put the words 'Forgiveness is Freedom' on the sign up
you know a new church and I'm interested in in exploring that issue of
forgiveness and and I suppose within the context of you know it is order and
justice the same as conservatism and progressiveness and and then how do you
overlay what is a spiritual concept like forgiveness sorry to plunge in the deep
end. Okay yeah and so often that dynamic of order and justice is seen in our
political life from a conservative and a progressive so it is really the
manifestation often but what both of those two sides and then that's of
trouble with our political life it's we are we are black and white where we've
seen as a binary theme whereas in fact both conservative and progressive have
something to offer and and and and how they dance together is really the
important thing there was a Robert Man who's a well-known public intellectual
wrote a great article only a few weeks ago on the asylum seeker issue and saying
really until though the conservatives and the progressives get out of their
corners and come together and try and seek a solution because at the at the
moment the the argument is about beating each other. They're stuck to the walls.
Yeah not adding these kids off Nauru. The only way we're going to get
these kids off Nauru is for the for the progressives who who are really
passionate about justice and the conservatives who are really concerned
genuinely and rightly concerned about order come together and try and find a
solution. Is that they need to forgive themselves in each other. Well I think we
both have to give up what we see is our moral high-ground and especially the
progressives who tend to want to dwell on them in the moral high ground and
don't want to compromise and but honestly life together is a better
compromise then as a nation as in our you know in our personal relationships
as well in the terms of in terms of the dynamic of forgiveness that is it is as
much a political concept as that is there's a spiritual concept to be honest
and the idea of forgiveness is not saying that you know what you did is
okay it may well not be okay. I like to think of it in terms of when
when someone harms me or hurts me or wounds me in some way what they're
really done is they've they've they're fired as if a metaphorical arrow into my
heart or into my being and and that causes the wound, but the trouble is
there's a there's a rope on that on that arrow that is connected to them and they
can wiggle that and it will continue to cause me pain. The idea of forgiveness is
cutting that rope. In the book you were adopted. I do believe that you know what
happens to us in our formative years, as children shapes us in one way or another.
Have you had to apply that that very I mean the the principle of forgiveness is
very central to the teachings of Christ isn't it how have you found your way
down that path? I mean I think in in one way shape or form we all have to give
our parents for something and my my kids
and so that dynamic I think I talked in my
in the book in terms of my dad having a problem with alcohol and that caused a
lot of wounding in our family and and the fact that I in my younger days also
had a problem with alcohol indicated to me eventually when I wised up a bit that
I hadn't forgiven him for that and and therefore I was playing out his his
particular script and until I could forgive him for that I would continue to
do that so you know that was a perfect example of that in my own story. So you
started out as a butcher which was your your adopted dad's trade. Was there a
moment when God came to you? Or was it more like a progression of you reaching
out to or finding? No Damascus Road experience, no not really I
mean I I went back to church in my early 20s after having 10 years never been
anywhere near a church and only because it was Christmas Day and I thought at
Christmas Day yeah he got a church on Christmas Day that's what I did and I I
was captured by the the otherness, the transcendence of what was going on in
this this this worship experience and I think I caught a little glimpse of
something that was more than the life I was leading and so I went back the next
week and the next week and the way and eventually people started to I was a
young single man so you know obviously people thought oh here's a, would
grab this bloke and make him a priest and and so I I kind of resisted that for
a very long time and and I thought I'll I'll settle it I'll go to the bishop and
he'll throw me out of his office and that'll be it and he didn't and 30 years
later I'm still wearing this strange uniform. Now it's been an interesting
decade for the Anglican Church, particularly in this area with
the Royal Commission and I guess this binds those issues of childhood and and
and metaphorical arrows and forgiveness. Are you comfortable with where the
Anglican Church currently sits as an outcome of the Royal Commission into
institutional child abuse? I mean the dynamic we saw in the Royal Commission
is is another classic example of order and justice.The church chose order
over justice and it's very easy for the church to do that. Since the Royal
Commission during that process we had some wonderful leadership from the then
Bishop Thompson who was very clear that he was he was not going to
allow that dynamic to continue that we would choose justice over order and so
we are now in the diocese of Newcastle at a point where we very clear that we will
pay proper redress. tThat and not only will we do that but we will have systems
in place that ensure that those kinds of crimes never occur again. Now of course
when you're dealing with human beings you you can never take your eye off the
ball you can never say "well you know we've fixed that now" because constant
vigilance is necessary to ensure the safety of vulnerable people. So you asked
me am i comfortable. I'm never totally comfortable because I think the minute
you become totally comfortable you actually you expose vulnerable people to
to harm. So never complacent but I I am part of an organisation that is utterly
committed to justice and to protecting vulnerable people from harm. How long
have you been at Gosford? I'm in my 19th year in Gosford, which is a
very long time in one place. So in terms of the local issues, in terms of justice
in in your own community what do you think the major challenges facing this
community are right now? I think the there are I think the major issue
is facing a community I are in our homes, on our streets and in our wider
community. So the major issue facing us in our homes on the Central Coast is
domestic violence. We are we are one of the highest incidents of domestic
violence in the country and so and that that requires an absolute change in
culture, especially amongst men. Men have to pick up the ball here and and just
simply not accept other men using violence or even even speaking in
violent ways or diminishing women as a joke and I think you know men got to
stand up and say "mate that's not OK" and change the culture when we do that
we will see change. Secondly I think the issue on our streets is is the homeless issue.
We have a high incidence of homelessness on the Central Coast and that comes from
a high incidence of mental illness mental health issues and so we've got to
do much better in the area of mental health on the Central Coast and that
requires money and lobbying and annoying our politicians until we get the funding
that we need. Are our politicians amenable at a local level?
Do you feel like that they're listening to what people like you would
say? It's it's it's a difficult issue and it's not just fixed through
through money but and. I think all politicians want to see this this change.
It's such a difficult issue that it's it's it's just not all a one one thing
fix all, it's such a multi-faceted thing. So it's it's not just the Pollies' but
there are our whole community has to come together and do something better.
Now I must ask you about the impending church closures on the
Peninsula at Point Claire and I think at The Entrance and parishioners were were
told that part of the imperative for closing some of those churches was to
pay for compensation to the victims. Do you want to speak to that? Yes I mean
that is that is part of the issue and certainly we as a church throughout
history and you know looking back the Royal Commission looked back about 50
years so over the last 50 years have been you know every parishioner every
priest the whole community have been part of a culture that allowed children
to be abused and and so we've got to take collective responsibility for this
as now I simply won't accept saying "I didn't know anything about it not my not
my responsibility". It is it's our collective responsibility
so therefore we have to find ways to fund proper redress but that's only one
part of what's happening in terms of the sale of church buildings. Most of our older
church buildings on the Central Coast you would notice are actually placed at
the on the water because the priests used to travel by boat and yeah so if
you if you look at you know the church here and Gosford or at the old church
Kincumber at that the and and so that the model of ministry has changed since
then. Now we travel by road but a lot of our churches were built certainly
before transport was as easily accessible as it is and if we want to be
a vibrant Church well into the 21st and hopefully 22nd and 23rd centuries then
we can't keep running a 19th century model. At the moment what that's what
we're doing and so we have to run a 20th century model that recognizes that
people travel for all sorts of things so we don't need a church in every corner.
We also need to be a well-funded Church and so the vision the bishop has for the
diocese is to have less parishes about better funded parishes where we can be
better service to the community. Okay back to other issues that you cover off
in the book from a very personal perspective. I think there's everything
your own childhood through to, you know guns in the streets of America. Are we
are we living, is contemporary society reflective of the kingdom of God or a
fallen world? Hopefully neither of those well I'd sadly now on one the the first
century Palestinian Jews had this concept of two eons of time the one we
live in now and the one that is to come and founder the firm that I work for was
utterly obsessed by the one that is to come and and he kept saying the way we
the way we bring that into being is to live it now and and so I think all the
work we do as a church is about trying to bring that that Kingdom into
existence and it's it's it's not just a religious thing. In fact it's a very
small portion that is a religious thing. It is a social thing because as I say in
the book 'all justice is social'. What Jesus called the Kingdom of God I would
now call a just society. Right. So bringing a just society into existence
requires every human being to to live as if it was already a just society and
that's got a lot everything to do with what we do with our money what we do
with our personal power. You know often we get hooked up on the sex thing Jesus
didn't even mention that, but he he spoke so much about what we do with our money
and how we manage our finances. Which brings us to another Royal Commission. Absolutely and then yeah
the the Banking Royal Commission is a clear example of how we have not been
living as a just society because financially vulnerable people have been
deeply harmed by greed. So the founder of your brand said "love one another" How are
we going on a scale of one to ten with that in the world in the world as it is
father. Right it's it's really difficult to to answer
that question because I see moments pockets of incredible events of loving
our neighbor and then I see things like the Banking Royal Commission and the
Royal Commission into Child Sexual Abuse. Where the absolute opposite has happened
there. So we are a mixture but you know I I spend a lot of time with year
12 students they are in schools in society and lecturing of society and
culture subject. In schools? In public in private and I always come away
utterly inspired by these young people. They are so much more societally aware
that I was when I was their age. They are so much more aware of social justice
issues and committed to a to living out a just society. Sometimes I think the
sooner my generation get out of the way and let these young people run the show
better off we'll be, but. So you haven't bought your book to do a plug but it's called
Outspoken, available in all good book shops and online. I must ask you how much do
you like writing in the broad spectrum of what you do for a living and what you
give to your family and community how much do you like writing? I think most
writers would agree that it is a dance between agony and ecstasy when you write
there are there are moments of mountaintop experiences where a word or
a phrase just that comes and you think I don't know where that came from but it's
wonderful I'm gonna ride it yeah and then there's the blank page that sits in
front of you for days and you just can't get up a word down
and and that's agony. So it's being a writer really just putting your
humanity on the page and I think all human beings understand the the dance
between agony and ecstasy and human living. Certainly do. We just have the
privilege of putting it down on paper. I want to leave on a high point but
just before I do as a consequence of your outspokenness you've had services
invaded threats against you what what keeps you going? I think what keeps me
going is I have three and almost four grandchildren and my little little
granddaughter is just about to be born statistically we are told she'll live
till she's 104 and so that's well into the 22nd century. I want it I want to
believe them a world that is a place in which they can live and love and
flourish and be safe and that's what that's what drives me. I think
that's a wonderful place to stop thank you so much for your time. Pleasure, thank you.
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