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video games eh
hello everyone and welcome back to video games a in the very Canadian talk-show
we talk about all sorts of video game related stuff
my name is Garrett May and with me as always is my co-host Josh Taylor how you
doing today Josh I'm doing well today Garrett how are you
I'm excellent I am excellent thank you for asking because today we're talking
about one of my favorite subjects in videogames immersion talking about get
it fully immersed in a videogame and really what it takes to get it done
some of the best games that have done it for you and really how how it's done
because emerge it's a bit of an abstract thing right like it's it's a very
personal thing you know for me obviously some games that come to mind Skyrim
extremely immersive in my opinion the VR very merciful yeah we're not I won't
talk too much about VR and some of those Bethesda open-world games very immersive
that witcher do it pretty well some games don't do it so well though but
with similar gameplay style so we're just gonna try to delve into why that
kind of stuff happens ok I'm in ok where do you want to start that's it's a big
topic my man we gotta jump right into it ok so when I look at games like Skyrim
probably one of the most immersive games for me that I've played I think it's a
very personal thing I agree that immersion is personal for sure but for
me I think part of it stems from what you're expecting to come out of the game
and really like it who how involved you can get in your character are probably
two of the most immersive immersive things for me I know in the past I've
said that having a voice that acted protagonist helps the overall feel of
the game but in recent times I've realized that it takes away from your
involvement in the character so the combination of those two things so for
example the first time I play through Skyrim the first time I joined the
Thieves Guild I didn't know that was gonna happen I didn't know what was
gonna happen I didn't know how it was all gonna come out but the way the
couette no spoilers but the way the quest progressed sand something happened
later on in the quest I was like holy shit I am this now
anyway I'm gonna ask for spoilers and we're gonna give the spoiler warning
because we like hopefully we've all played Skyrim it's like six years old
now yeah so what tell me specifically what
happened okay so you're going right and you become a nightingale right which
that shouldn't be too big of a spoiler but you become a nightingale and you go
through that whole process and stuff like that you get the sweet armor you
make it awesome snow holy shit I'm sick like but I was like I'm sick right was
me I did this I was like whoa that's incredible right and looking back it's
kind of a weird thing to think about how I was able to get so immersed in that
game but I think it partly had to do with I didn't expect what was coming and
the way it's able to involve you in your characters kind of journey right uh yeah
I think Skyrim is definitely an immersive game so I think have you
played it on PC though yeah downloaded any immersion mods yeah I oh I played it
on all three platforms Xbox 360 well I accept people that knew once with the
new addition but yeah PC with some mods - I've had some non immersive mods but
but but some healthful mods for sure as well yeah well I was thinking there's a
lot of the immersion mods like on PC which is what I would get I don't like
the silly mods personally yeah so I would get version mods and I remember
getting like the cloaks I think it's called cloaks of Skyrim or
something where it adds cloaks to the game but it also adds temperature and it
affecting your player so if you're too cold like carry weight goes down or
something and you need to warm up by a fire or with a cloak and so like it's
stuff like that where you you can't just be thinking about the video game anymore
you have to kind of start thinking about your characters real needs that he may
or may not have and that I think is a key thing to adding to immersion yeah
that's true right what being invested in your
character is not only just survival first but also there are other needs as
well I think that's a slippery slope though because there are some games for
example like The Sims the sims for me is much less immersive I
agree and more of like a kind of a bird's-eye thing where I'm looking down
and control I godlike I'm I'm just influencing what happens right because
there's an overwhelming amount of needs for these characters that I've created
yeah and imagine if you had a single-player first-person Sims game
first of all the gameplay I think would be extremely boring for a first-person
type game like it's just like go to the bathroom oh yeah so it'd be a lot of
like waiting around for things to have just just live your life basically Yeah
right like just have another life in here so I think part of the reason the
Sims is an immersive is because it can't access first or even third person so
it's limited to feeling like an RTS or a god game where you're controlling from
above that's true and I think another reason the Sims is immersion breaking is
on purpose because I think if they made it to realistic people wouldn't play it
they would shy away yeah and you'd be bored like you so have sex with your
neighbor's wife and she gets pregnant then you get married and now you've got
two y-you know like yeah okay like all that stuff that's made possible by the
craziness that is the sims yeah that okay so that's that's not exactly super
immersive on purpose but part of that's the overwhelming needs that you have is
almost boring and it's chore like yeah it's a tool if it's not silly and fun
but I guess also partly the perspective that you take right so if if you're
actually behind your character well partly the camera if you're behind your
character or actually seeing through your character's eyes obviously those
two things help immersion more than if you're looking from a top-down
perspective but there are still the top-down RPGs that do immerse you in the
world and kind of get you vested and feeling part of your character right
yeah definitely there are very immersive like top-down RPGs like you said where
at that point especially in our RPGs where I have a party and stuff like that
like top-down RPGs arrive a party to control I'm not necessarily immersed in
being my single character I'm sometimes immersed in the world and I'm just
trying to do the best for my party right but the world itself is what immerses me
not right that's true I guess the character
doesn't necessarily need to be super involved for you to immerse yourself in
a world I guess really that was more a comment about myself and really what
helps right yeah yeah like for example when playing through the Mass Effect
series I have my own personal Shepard that I invested in and their
relationships with the other characters in the game
was part of what immersed me in that game so much less so the gameplay tasks
that were required like going through and shooting the enemies wasn't as
immersive because it felt very video game II right but but developing my
relationships and making the right dialogue choices and stuff like that
totally did you know decisions I make influenced my relationship with these
characters made me feel like okay I'm actually part of this world in a way
which is something that The Witcher kind of does is well I think of it as a
choice right it does a really good job of making like you very involved in the
choices and the choices that you make affect something else in the world right
it doesn't so that definitely helps immersion but really what do you think
about it you have a ton of choices to make and decisions to make as Geralt but
it's only around certain things right it's only around what where he goes and
what he does there's no like I don't need to you know eat to survive I don't
go the bathroom is Jerell icky it eliminates those things to focus on
really the world development type stuff yeah that really helps the immersion in
that game in my opinion yeah for me the most immersive thing about The Witcher
is that the world the quality and the density of the world and when you enter
a town there's all these people like going about their day-to-day business
and there's lots of them so it doesn't feel empty or dead and it's just such
like kind of a living world it feels like there are ruins that are inhabited
by bandits and then there are ruins that are inhabited by monsters and like all
the lore is all there for you to read up on or hear bed if you want to so I think
The Witcher does a really good job of that world immersion versus player
specific player immersion yeah that's true I guess those are two kind of
slightly different things really being invested in the world in the space and
really by and then really feeling like you're a
part of that specific character for me I don't know their son I guess there are
pros and cons to both and some games do a great job of both a game like gta5 for
example or the GTA series I would argue are in a way sort of immersive games
there are definitely immersive breaking things part of those games but the world
like you said feel so alive there are things happening organically then I
guess that to me is a big part of immersion when you're in a world and
things happen see whether they're scripted or not seemingly organically
like a guy if you see a guy like running away from the police or something
that's immersive to me because then I can just on a whim decide okay I'm gonna
also join this police chase and help the police or something
or maybe I'm gonna help this criminal by shooting the police like ya know sure
and that's a huge task for open-world games which are some of the most
immersive games but think about all the time and effort that needs to go into
making sure these scripted events happen and they feel natural rather than just
that's the same police chase that I've seen before right right it's gotta be
it's gotta feel new and it's got to feel dynamic which is such a challenge well
for part of the reason I have always loved Red Dead Redemption so much
another Rockstar open-world game is that you can just be riding on your horse
between the towns or something and then there'll be a couple of bandits on the
side of the road or distressed looking woman will run out and be like oh my god
stop your horse like help me please or something and then it ends up being a
booby trap or sometimes you'll get stopped by someone and they'll be like
oh my god they're hanging my husband wife girlfriend's friend whatever so you
have to go and help for them you don't have to do any of it
but the option is there that there are these like random events happening in
the world that you can now intervene with the idea being that those are still
happening while you're not there but then it becomes the whole if it's true
certain and in that game those events are all scripted somewhat alright now
they're all that there's probably what 20 or 30 different options yeah for
these and it just like events but there's enough that it doesn't feel like
when you see a similar thing happening twice with a different like looking NPC
yeah it doesn't feel like oh you know that I've tracked this
thing in the cab it feels like the world is actually happening around you
yeah and they happen infrequently enough to that you don't get tired of them and
like you said there's 20 or 30 so that by the time I've seen the same one twice
like I've also seen the last 15 which were different so that's helped me kind
of forget about the first time I saw it perhaps and then yeah for sure that was
something that I always that is definitely a big thing for me with
immersion and definitely helps me out and what and those dynamic events in
games though the Red Dead series did a good job of it and it it was in the Red
Dead Redemption those things were great Skyrim does an okay job of that
truthfully I think okay because I think also just so fit it's like some amount
of things that you find happening in the world like you see a couple travelers
when you're walking through you see a couple of groups of the Stormcloaks or
the Imperials you know like sometimes they're fighting
and then they always like it just seems less dynamic and just far more there's
only three or four options you see it yeah there it is again
right but immersive yeah but for me Skyrim is is in its own thing because
I'm immersed both in the world of Skyrim like that Nordic very Scandinavian world
that's been inhabited by all the different people of Tamriel and stuff
like that but I'm also invested in my character because I've spent the time
customizing them choosing how I'm gonna play the game like magic or archery or
weapons whatever choosing how I'm gonna handle all the quests or what order I'm
gonna do quests in especially once you start playing it for the second time and
you kind of understand what's going on that all adds to the the immersion of
your character that's true it's an interesting point you make there because
in Red Dead Redemption you're playing as John Marston right like you're playing a
kid you're playing a character they've made for you there's not much
customization there I think with different weapon choices a few different
clothing options but it's all very scripted very linear in your character
sense right but they've done a really good job of the world building and
making dynamic events happen but in Skyrim it's almost the opposite
much of the effort has gone into really developing a specific character to you
and role playing a character and these dynamic things in the world are a little
bit less dynamic feeling than in these other games it's interesting especially
in Skyrim the a lot of the events like you said they're not as dynamic because
the game waits for you the player to like trigger them in a lot of times a
lot of it happens at this point and Owen you come better you'll find it yeah I
guess you I get you but again it's so immersive because of all the time you
spend developing your character there look right there feel their play style
whereas in Red Dead it was more about your character in this world right it's
exactly it's interesting to think about and so on that note I want to talk about
one of the most immersive games I've ever played personally which are the
metro games metro 2033 and Metro last light okay um so they're like first
person games but how they immerse you is so they take place in the Moscow subway
after the atomic war or whatever so there's like creatures and stuff like
that yeah there's monsters it's got a element of horror because the subways
always dark and there's no more electricity and stuff and so it's it's
spooky all the time and you have this pump-action flashlight that you have to
pump up every once in a while and just gradually gets dimmer and dimmer and if
you go above the surface which you have to for some missions you have to bring
gas masks with that which have filters and those filters only last five minutes
so you're only always like running around encountering enemies having to
fight them but like still aware that okay I only have two minutes left
now I have to go find another filter right so it adds to this level of like
holy shit the world is really trying to kill me
and I need to do my best to survive right now and another and one of the
things I find really really helps immersion for developers to focus on is
sound so if you have like poor sound design you're not you're gonna lose a
lot of people in the immersion of the game
so like metro is amazing because there's not any music that I can remember it's
just the noises of the world so sometimes still hear when you're in the
the subway stations which is where the people like the hubs in the towns
you can be walking through and you overhear hundreds of different dialogues
between all the NPC's sometimes there'll be a guy playing guitar or a guy telling
stories to a group of children and you get to walk through it and you can stand
there and listen if you want to or you can move on and go to your next
objective which also feels organic because while all these other NPCs are
living their lives you're a ranger and or you're like trying to save the metro
from this impending doom which is the monsters so then you're like on your way
and you go and talk to a leader or whoever like the guy who's gonna give
you your task and he's it feels like he's very aware that he's got all these
people that he's got to help survive and so he's giving you this task being like
this is for the benefit of the Metro so you have to do it right and it feels it
feels very the world feels very much a lot yeah so in that game that the
emergent building there is completely to do with the world is even though it's a
first-person game right it's I'm playing much less about your character yeah like
you're just playing as Artyom right who isn't released and so he could be like
for sure and anything but it's just a guy it's just supposed to be you I guess
but then the world takes over with the immersion that makes total sense but in
first-person games it's rare they'll find a first-person game that is very
character of centric oh yeah because there's a but you can't tell you can't
see yourself and really see the development of your character it's
interesting because the first-person game which you'd immediately and we said
at the beginning of episode are inherently immersive because you're
literally letting through the eyes of the character that must rely mostly I
would think on the world rather than their characters development to push
forward the immersion I would argue that's true except in games where it's
like a survival style game where you are focused on your characters needs again
like saying this but for this person but let's say Daisy or whatever okay sorry
if you play that first person that becomes an immersive survival sim
because now you have to go oh shit like I'm hungry I need water I need clothing
to survive the nighttime I need weapons I need the shelter you know what I mean
so that becomes very about you the care here and utilizing the world so many of
these games we've talked about have had a clear focus world building with a
character who is observing and experiencing this world or character
building in you know a world that's influencing the character and influenced
by the writer that there's a two-way relationship well not that not that in
the world building games the character doesn't have an influence on the world
they do for sure but there's much less of the reverse or if there is it's much
very scripted yeah yeah yeah exact right whereas in in games like Skyrim very
character-driven if I go out and do this dungeon and I get this item that I now
have it makes my character stronger in this particular way it's really
interesting to think about when you start getting into it and start thinking
about your favorite games and really what made them great for you and really
get to the specifics of why you were so immersed in the game what is it about is
it about the world that I'm experiencing or is it really about developing myself
in an interesting setting yeah another game I life-like and it this could be
like biased by VR which I know we said we wouldn't try to mention because VR
automatically has immersion like beat yeah high levels versus playing yeah
like versus fighting on a screen it that's how you get immersed as you play
VR but I played elite dangerous a lot I played it both on and on PR and again
for me that's the sound design if I put this head these headphones on and the VR
headset on I'm now a spaceship pilot right like and it's not my character
it's just me it's me I am the pilot first person you don't customize okay so
so in that game again we can we can we can say in that game your world the
world building is the space around you the space right but in some ways it's
also you your character influencing the controls of the ship taking you through
this world right like it's and it's and again comes down to your ship to maybe
the character is this ship anyway in a way do I think
upgrade your ship and parts and stuff like that in that game hey upgrade
weapons and she your utility stuff like that and you can
buy new ships and get upgrade so it's so interesting to think about like you know
and then when I think about come back to the Mass Effect series of games right
for me that's a tough one to nail down because you spend a lot of time
developing especially in the first game you spent a lot of time developing your
character and building your Shepherd their skills and there's a much more
robust skill system assigning points there's like I think one hundred and
fifty points to assign and all these things if you get to the top level but
there's also such an immersive world to experience it's very scripted and very
linear but it's also very immersive but in games two and three it's much less
about especially too much less about you building your Shepherd and the world and
characters around this Shepherd which is which is kind of interesting to me they
they almost change it up a little bit between this game one and games two and
three but it's a hard one to pick the linear linear style is just a little bit
you know we get into that theory I think I think another the point is home there
are the open-world immersion games but then there's linear games that are very
immersive like the Metro see that's very true linear and yet it's one of my most
immersive games ever yes in the linear games like that it's hard for to really
be about the character development and more about the character kind of story
the Probation like it becomes less about doing anything you want like an an
open-world game and more about experiencing this specific story another
one I forgot to mention was the game fire watch have you played that no I've
seen it though yeah it's that's a very immersive game you play as a
first-person guy but you're again you're a specific character experiencing this
specific story very linear that the developers have laid out and said like
this is the story we're trying to tell so yeah for sure well and same with
uncharted 4 the insurer yeah which are which are a very immersive and and
really it's it's poorly the story but it's much less about Nathan Drake and
like you're much less focused on than drake and building up who nathan
drake is because is drake in this incredible adventure right exactly which
is built very well but it's in stark contrast to games where it's very
character eccentric and I guess layers will have their preference for me gosh
it's hard to say which I like more do I like building my character or building
and experiencing worlds with a set character yeah I agree with that I don't
know what I like more I don't know that that I can like one or the other more I
think for me I I have a slight preference towards the character
development and character building myself not to say I can't really enjoy a
great world with this set character but and I think they have to be put into
those two holes I just think it's interesting to look at the two kind of
different sides of it right yeah which is great but Josh that's all Wow
immersion we solved it solved it so not so I finish it I think immersion can be
talked about for hours maybe maybe we'll come back to this topic sometimes yeah
we're not quite immersion scientists yet we're just immersion scholars will say
yes definitely emergent scholar but I think I think we're done for merging
today what maybe we'll come back you're right maybe we'll come back to this
topic in the future but Josh I got a thank you so much for being here thanks
for having me Garrett it was fun we should possibly do it again we
definitely will do it again man what are you saying we always do we always do
okay but again I gotta thank you guys the viewers out there thank you so much
for watching if you enjoyed this episode hit like maybe hit us up with a comment
letting us know some of your most immersive games we won't hear if we
missed any please and we only talked about a few there's probably hundreds
out there they're really immersive games let us know we want to play them we'll
play me definitely so many more I'm already thinking of some right now maybe
I'll leave a comment there's maybe the viewers will respond to my comment
that's to let us know some of your favorite immersive games out there but
again thank you for watching and we hope to see you next time
on video games eh?
game design discussion
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