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Civilization 6 Composer - Christopher Tin Interview - Duration: 25:41.
The world of video games is so varied
It requires so many expertise to have that final product
We are dealing with animators, with writers, visual designers
And of course with composition
This week we are talking to Christopher Tin, the first composer to win a Grammy for his work in Video Games
Really bringing that big orchestral sound to the video game world and lending a lot of credence to the artform
He's here joining us today, Christopher thank you so much for joining the program
Christopher: It's my pleasure Andy
Andy: Just to set the stage, What would players - people that play games - really know you for, some of the work you've done
Christopher: Probably my best known piece is a song called Baba Yetu, which is the theme song to Civilization 4
Came out about 10 years ago in late 2005, and probably best known also because
it gained a lot of popularity outside of video game music as well
Certainly it had its origins as the theme to Civilization 4, but it quickly became a modern choral standard
A lot of choirs around the world sing it, completely detached from its video game roots.
And that song is probably what most people know me by
Andy: And of course you are involved with the new big game that is coming out this week, Civilization 6
Christopher: Yes, I returned to Civilization 6 and I've written a new theme song for the game
The song is called Sogno Di Volare, and it is a setting of Da Vinci's writings on flying
So I took a very famous quote of his, which goes something like "Once you have flown, you will always look at the sky, because that is where your home is and that is where you'll long to return"
And a little easter egg for Civilization players out there, that's actually a quote that appears in the game Civilization 4 when you discover flight
And so I took that quote, had it recast into modern Italian and used that as the lyrics for the new theme song
for Civilization 6
Andy: So absolutely fascinating - I am going to hand you over to my colleague Frederic Limon. He is a composer in his own right, and just kind of joins us on the program when we need to talk about music
He has his Soundtrack Reviews that we talk about here
Frederic, thank you so much for joining
Frederic: Thank you for having me - Christopher, I'm excited to talk about music a bit
Christopher: Yeah, let's talk shop!
Frederic: One thing that I found interesting - I'm going to tie Baba Yetu to Sogno Di Volare in a second
I remember seeing an interview where you talked about how it took you a week to come up with that main first melody (to Baba Yetu)
And that's so striking compared to - you had mentioned how the home screen music really plays an impact in people's experience
When they play a video game. I'm thinking the Mass Effect intro, or the intro to The Last of Us. Just very iconic things.
And what stood out to me from Baba Yetu was just how melodic it was
And now with Sogno Di Volare, which is - I love what you put together there - I notice it starts off more as a texture
So I was wondering if there was anything deliberate or any decision making there
where you decided to stay away from something as iconic right in the first few bars and create something more of an overarching theme
Christopher: Actually that's a really great observation Frederic
I have to say, because originally Sogno Di Volare was about 8 bars shorter at the beginning
It just launched right into the main theme
But when I wrote it and I recorded it and I put it up against the image of the opening menu screen
I just tried to get a sense of the pacing of what was going on, and how it would feel to launch the game for the first time
And Sogno di Volare, it really comes rushing at you very quickly
I mean, as a piece goes. It's very rhythmic, very fast. Baba Yetu sort of eases you into it
It's a more, maybe sort of spiritual and subdued experience
Sogno di Volare is very much a high energy experience, and I felt like I just needed a moment of pause
before hitting them with the main theme, and so I extended the intro just a little longer
And I'm really pleased that you noticed that, that that was a deliberate thing
That I did, because at the end of the day, it's not just about writing a melody it's also about setting the tone
for the game experience
As you hit that menu screen
And literally I would play the music, pretend like I was mousing around on the screen, you know selecting my civ
And just get a sense of how it felt, whether I felt like this was a time when the music needed to kick in
you know, that sort of thing. So there is definitely a physical dimension I think of seeing how the music plays underneath your own physical actions when launching the game
Frederic: Wow, to be honest a part of me wondered if it was deliberate or if it was somewhat deliberate but that really answers it
So really you are creating an experience, that's really what you are creating at the end of the day
Kind of making it sync with what the players are going to go through
Christopher: Yeah, you really want to do that because
This is going to be their experience, their first time hearing my music
And you want to present your music and you want to support the game as best you can
So I really did take as much time and put in as much effort as possible
Sort of like mocking up what the experience of first launching the game would be like
And I have to say that while I tried not to fixate too much on Baba Yetu
I was very much aware of the history of Baba Yetu and how it resonated with a lot of fans
And how, that experience of booting up that music felt for a lot of people
Just in the comments I've read over the years about how they boot up the game for the first time and they listen to the music
I wanted to use that I guess as a goalpoast
This is the sort of thing that I should try to achieve again
That sort of feeling of launching a game for the first time
Frederic: And one thing that I love about Sogno Di Volare, is that I feel like it could equally be performed at a church
or a cathedral, or a hollywood stage, some theatre
It really plays a balance between something - I think you had mentioned medieval - in a way, in a sense
but also the symphonic modern feel
Was it difficult to maintain that nuance? To keep it on the right track?
It's such a complex track in a way that I really feel it could have gone off the rails at some points, but you
kept it in a perfect balance in my opinion
Christopher: Well thank you. I mean I think it's, it was a
There were specific creative challenges composing it I think
For one thing, unlike Baba Yetu it's very much rooted in a European, Western musical tradition
And a lot of the devices that I used in Baba Yetu which are things that we unconsciously sort of are familiar with
In our western appreciation of pop music, thing like call and response choruses, and driving drums and things like that
That are very sort of popular cultural musical experiences that Baba Yetu sort of plays on in a way
This is very much rooted in sort of a Classical European system, tradition really
And so there's no drums, there's no soloist
It's all sort of like a big oratorial choir you know, choral piece
from a big oratorial or something like that
And it was, like a lot of the devices that I've used over the years
I couldn't really bring to this
So you know, there were some specific musical challenges I'd say
Frederic: You had mentioned how you're basing it - so many of your songs and your tracks you base off of texts
and, I did note that English was your major. And you had mentioned din previous interviews how musical ideas come to you as a response to things
Whether it be images, or else other things
Do you also feel or hear music when you read text, is that something that happens?
Christopher: I do sometimes hear and feel music when I read texts, but it really depends on the text
There are a lot of texts that are very ambiguous
That don't give you a lot
There are a lot of texts that are not rhythmic at all
which don't suggest any sort of rhythm or melody.
It's harder to work with those
But there are a lot of times when I come across a prayer
or a fragment of a poem or something
that is so evocative, and the sort of setting of it is so lyrical and so rhythmic
that the music, it does have the writing for you
But you're right in that I do respond to a lot of different things
I think as a media composer, any sort of composer you have to have sort of a reactionary reflex
To external stimuli. And that's how you write your music, you sort of respond to things that are thrown at you
Whether they be visual cues, or textual cues, or even other fragments of music
And I think that's how I like to compose, and I think it's a very natural way of composing
Especially if you're scoring, say, a video game
Frederic: Oh exactly, I'm even thinking - going back to the fact that it took you a week to put together those first several notes for the melody to Baba Yetu
I mean, as a musician I've had experiences as well where I put something together, I feel like it's right
And then the morning after, or in the middle of the night I wake up and it's like No, something missing
Right, and you keep iterating and iterating until you feel it's ready
But then there's the part of you that always wonders, Well if I gave it another week would I have uncovered something deeper inside of me, right?
Where do you find that fine line where you decide "Ok, this is my final product" versus "I feel like there's something more for me to give"
Christopher: Well, in the case of Sogno di Volare, and a lot of other pieces that I've written in the last few years
Frankly, I just run out of time
I have deadlines, and I have to deliver these pieces at a certain time
And as much as I would love to pore over them
And refine and refine and refine, I just don't have that luxury like I used to
I mean, you know I often say that I spent an entire week writing the first four bars of Baba Yetu
And that's absolutely true, because I threw out draft after draft after draft, and I was just not happy with what I did
And I just kept reiterating and reiterating until finally at the end of the week something that I was really happy with came to me
Back then, I was at the beginning of my career
I mean, Baba Yetu was the very first piece of music that I wrote for a video game
And I had the luxury of time back then
Now, not so much
For this particular theme song, I had three and a half weeks from when I got the artwork and the opening movie
to when I had to deliver the final composed orchestrated recorded and mixed product
Which is not a lot of time
And I'll be honest with you, the first week or so I was writing, I wrote a completely different piece that just was not doing it
And was just suffering, and it was the setting actually of Article 1 of the United Nations charter of the declaration of Human Rights
But it just wasn't working, it was not exciting to anyone
And I scrapped it
So that was a week gone right there
So I feel like at a certain point you're never really completely 100% satisfied
with what you've done, you just sort of have to move one from it.
And I think what actually ends up happening is you get more and more comfortable moving on
from things, and sort of embracing that yeah you made this creative decision, you could have made this other creative decision, but in all likelihood this idea is just as good as the other ideas
And you're splitting hairs at some point, so I think it's worth keeping perspective on these types of things
You know, the end listener doesn't know that this note could have gone up as opposed to going down
these are just those sort of things that you drive yourself crazy with as a composer
that have no real bearing on the finished product
that the listener experiences, so I think letting go is a bit of a healthy attitude to take
Frederic: That sounds like life advice!
Christopher: I know right! Somebody should write a song about that! Call it Let it Go. That might do well
Frederic: Transcribe it from what you just said and then make the lyrics I think
So keeping that in mind, something that I experience when I'm composing - I'm wondering if you, if this happens to you
Say you get the first several notes down. Ok great. And so usually that makes everything flow much more quickly, much more easily
I'll notice that certain images or memories come to my mind and sometimes that informs how I put together the rest of the song
And I'm wondering in the case of Baba Yetu or Sogno di Volare if - once you got over the initial hurdle of how is this going to go
Did specific images or memories come to your mind that may have informed or just were overall themes in the back of your head as you put this together?
Christopher: I think that in the case of both Baba Yetu and Sogno di Volare, the development of the pieces didn't really come from sort of emotional memories
for me, as much as they came from mathematics and architecture and structure, and a sense of
sort of song form, and needing to develop things and move things in different ways to keep the flow of the song shifting and evolving and constantly surprising the listener
So I think for me, if personal life experience and emotion ever comes to play it usually comes in when I'm crafting the main theme.
The picking the main notes and things like that. That's when the emotional recall as actors would say, that's when that process happens
But once you establish your main theme, for me anyway, developing the piece comes more a matter of relying on my training as a composer
And all the devices that you learn, the bag of tricks that you have in terms of orchestral devices and modulation devices and things to keep the song moving forward
Like, I have various guidelines that I post for myself when I'm writing a piece
I never feel like, I always want to make the listener feel like they're being surprised by something on sort of a continual basis
So a lot of my music modulates quite a bit
I shift keys, sometimes I do it in paired ways
So that the listener can sort of follow along with the modulation and be taken by the hand to this new key
Sometimes I like to surprise the listener, just spring a new key on them. I mean, sometimes I'll take a chord
that's in major, and suddenly shift it to minor
And that takes us to a new key
So, once I get into sort of I guess development phase composing, then it really becomes
Relying on your bag of tricks, and your training as a composer, and your understanding of song form
And just sort of this vetting process that you do with the piece to make sure that it never stagnates
And that the listener never feels like they're smarter than the piece and knows exactly what's going to happen before it happens
Frederic: Yeah, that's a really good point. So in a way when I'm listening to your music, I'm experiencing your love for mathematics, structure, text, song form, and the desire to surprise
Christopher: I think that's a fair assessment, yeah
Frederic: And something that you had mentioned earlier was that sometimes when composing for video games, there are technical limitations of course especially earlier on literally years ago versus now
Were there any technical limitations where you had put something together, you're happy with it, but then were challenged by technical difficulties or limitations
Christopher: I don't think in any game that I've ever scored, I've been handcuffed by any sort of technical limitation. I think game audio engines are sophisticated enough where you can do a lot with them in terms of an interactive element
And I've never really felt like my creativity was stifled at all by any sort of technical limitation - that said for Civilizations 4 and 6
I was essentially writing the most independent pieces of music that exists in those games
the main menu theme can sit as a piece of music and not be tied into any onscreen action or any gameplay
or anything interactive
So for both of those games, I was given the section of the game where I could just write a piece
And not worry about the technical side of things. Instead I could worry about the emotional side of things
And what a player feels when they boot up the game for the first time
Andy: Again, speaking with Christopher Tin, the composer working on Civilization 6. Some of his great songs that you've heard before
Baba Yetu and of course the new song that he's composed for this new game just out this week
Christopher, when I'm thinking of the world of video games, so often they're maligned and denigrated as just not real full experiences
Real games. things that you play, flashy lights, not a lot of depth there
What do you think your work does in legitimizing what these games kind of offer? And you compare your work to some of the other work you've done
What makes video game composition that much more special?
Christopher: Well video game composition is special in that, if you think about it it's the only real interactive form of mass market music being written out there
So I mean that in itself is a very unique thing
As to whether there is a stigma attached to video games - I would say in certain circles there still is
But in terms of the general public, I think video games are highly regarded
Artistically. I may be wrong. This is just one person's experience, but I've never really experienced that stigma attached to the work that I do in video games
Now, that said, I also do a lot of work in the Classical Music world
And in that world, this idea that a piece of music can be legitimate and come from a video game
Is still a new concept to them
There are video game themed concerts of course, and they tend to be lumped in with pop concerts and film music nights and things like that
But the idea that a piece of video game music can make the jump into the traditionally conservative Classic World is still in development
It's not quite there yet. And I'm not sure that we're going to be there anytime soon either, because if you think about it Film Music has been around for ages and yet
Outside of a couple of Prokofiev scores for Sergei Eisenstein films we still don't get film music in concert in sort of "Serious Classical Music Masterwork Concerts"
So that is only one very conservative sector of music. I think outside of that, the games are embraced as important and vital of a cultural phenomenon as film and tv
And I think a lot of people have let go of this idea that games are blips and bloop and whatever, you think about people's preconceptions of video game music being -
I mean people know that games are fully fleshed out virtual worlds with immersive and gorgeous soundtracks
So I think we're in a pretty good spot now
Andy: Good to hear, thank you so much Christopher Tin for his work on Civilization 6
And of course you can check out this game, it is available now you can hear some of these incredible scores that he's been working on.
Thank you again Christopher
One final question for our guest before he hits the road
Frederic: Absolutely, so one thing that I find fascinating
as a musician is that, there are very few times where you experience a peak sensation of - some people call it resonance, some people call it a spiritual experience
Something where - or even in psychology terms a state of Flow
where there's like peak experiences as a musician where whether it's at a certain moment when they were performing live
or when they were composing something
And in talking to my friends that are musicians, they can count on one hand where - these were the few times in my life where it was a peak experience that I had a musician
And I was wondering given that context if, there were any peak experiences for you that come to mind in your life that you would point and say
There I felt something that, like I experienced something that I could have only experienced doing music
Christopher: Yeah, that's a really good question Frederic and I've never been asked that before, but yes there were definitely experiences where
something came to me, and I've thought this is it - I've unlocked it
Baba Yetu was one such experience
When I finally hit upon that theme
That was a bit of a revelation for me
I have a piece called Waloyo Yamoni, which is the final track on my second album
The Drop that Contained the Sea
And in the final two minutes of that piece I figured out how to combine the two main motifs from there best of the piece into one big chorus
And that was a revelation for me as well
I think Sogno di Volare, a smaller revelatory moment but late at night I was improvising at the piano and suddenly I played out that theme - a variation of that theme
I mean, you know your initial ideas aren't perfect often.
And they need refinement, but moments like that. They tend to be clustered around the experience of writing a melody
Because sometimes a melody hits, and you realize it's just exactly the way it needs to be
And that's just a great feeling
Frederic: That is great, thank you
Andy: Big thanks again, Christopher Tin for joining the show. Andy Borkowski, Frederic Limon here. VGS Talk Radio AM640
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